Brother Alexander thank you for your insightful series on Genesis 5. I've read through each post and I'm now re-reading. I've been looking for answers to the Gen5 genealogy for as long as I can remember, but recently my search intensified. I began to feel desperate to find a viable, reasonable answer - or answers. My faith was on the line because Real Observations were at odds with Scriptural Inerrancy. My soul cried out to God and his Spirit gave me a vision of an enthralling, beautiful scene of twinkling, shimmering stars couched in a nebula painted in shades of violet - all in relation to the genealogy. It feels strange to me to claim such a thing as a vision, I think it always will. Regardless, the vision persisted in my heart and mind. What a strange association, I thought. This is something I had not considered.
Thank God for search engines, because I found your post, this obscure post, specifically, moments after I set finger to key to find if this association was real. I find your series far too convincing for comfort. I am startled. I demand answers.
I love science and reason, but I love God as well. To me these are interchangeable, in that God is truth and he birthed reason. Proper science is 'merely' a methodologized search for truth. It is my fervent attachment to truth that has repeatedly led me to the God of Israel. Loving truth is loving God and I love him.
My plan is to walk carefully through each post and ask questions accordingly. I am hoping and praying you might have the time and inclination to answer.
I love recreational maths and I had an inclination there was a connection between the planets and Gen 5.
I found the link within three evenings. I was shocked. Later I looked at Gen 11, and after a bit more work, it seemed to fit with astronomical data.
This also solves the young Earth creation issue, as the Gen 5 ages can actually be taken as astronomical data rather than actual years. This means the Bible doesn’t comment on the age of the Earth.
I did read through the Gen11 series, which is also convincing, but elicits a lot more questions.
I have math skill but am slow due to rustiness where you are clearly at ease. That portion will take me time to absorb, understand fully and verify.
This would indeed disprove the Young Earth hypothesis However, it challenges the faith if the numbers are not *actually* the labels that they bear. Whether this is due to mistranslation or some unknown misunderstanding, I do not know. Since scripture is fractal and self-referential I am hoping there is some biblical mechanism or passage that can demonstrate or reveal (convincingly) that this is deliberate on God's part; that it is par for the course.
Pondering this... whomever the ancient originator was, this was clearly oral tradition going deep into prehistory and was finally written down as The Book of Generations of Adam (Gen 5:1) and subsequently included in the first book of Moses. Was it called just "Generations of Adam" before it was written down? If true, it must have been obvious to the prehistoric ancients that it was an astronomical timekeeper and may have thought us dull for now knowing. Moses must have known but maybe he considered it old tech since other, less difficult means of timekeeping had presumably been developed in Egypt?
I hold this theory lightly, because I could be wrong. I will be writing a book on this at some point. And I hope it will be challenged and I can then refine it or finally dismiss it.
In terms of the connection between angels and stars, there are some great information online. I laid it out in my Hebrew Astronomy series.
I would look at Genesis 1 v 14 - And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to distinguish between the day and the night, and let them be signs to mark the seasons and days and years.
The text later calls these lights, stars. Stars are biblically symbolical of angels or the sons of God.
So you could argue that Genesis 5 lists the sons of God and relates them to the planets (also known as wandering stars).
I don’t think it challenges our faith too much, just the way we interpret those numbers. Equally, those people could have lived that long. We don’t know.
I think all the ancient numbers in the Pentateuch are all symbolically in some way. I think the problem is that as modern people, we read these numbers at face value. Rather than meditate on them and thereby uncover their layered meanings.
I think the reason it fell out of favour was Near East culture moved to a written culture rather than aural. And the meaning behind the stories were lost. Moses may have been aware of it, but didn’t need it as they could write things down and record the times and seasons without reference to the stars.
Thank you for reading the articles and the feedback
Each person has a differing foundation which their faith is built on. Weak faith can be built on something that is either untrue or technically a liberty in the New Covenant. For example circumcision was a faith-weakness for many of the early Jewish followers, and it eventually morphed into discrimination. Even Peter temporarily succumbed and Paul had to rebuke him publicly for it. Paul would often yield to others' faith weakness and advised in Romans 14 "Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things." This was to protect the faith of the weak, which is a charge for any follower of the Way with strong faith - at least to some extent.
Those who might be weak in the faith may react strongly or immediately reject contrary information should it be presented without sufficient scriptural gravity, thoughtfulness and gentleness. Mis-presented but legitimate contrary information can further weaken or destroy faith, even if it is objectively true.
This information you've presented has that potential and this what I have in mind as I write. Please don't misunderstand - this is not an accusation of mishandling but a sober-mindedness on my part. I want to be mindful of those with weak faith as I myself have been one of those with weak faith.
You are stupendously correct when you speak of the modern perspective. We have generally been trained that numbers mean what they say, that they themselves are exact and not up for interpretation. I am probably more so of this perspective. I find the symbolic mindset disorienting, unnerving. Why would anyone ever deliberately mislabel something of great import and expect me to somehow puzzle the real meaning based on context? Excuse me while I hide under my bed.
Gen 1:14 "Let them be signs to mark the seasons..." is powerful proof that a system which tracked seasons, days and years MUST exist in the real world as this verse the explicitly states that is God's purpose. It begs many questions. What is this system? Where is this system? How do we track these things as God intended?
The Stars > Angels > Planets > Sons of God > Adam's Progeny proof is not strong. I struggle to 'see' this connection. Sons of God is specifically reserved for beings higher than humans and Adam and his sons were very human. However the fact that Cain's progeny was not given this 'honor' and Seth's was may hold something. Cain's line was earthly and Seth's line was heavenly. This sounds like potential clue.
Brother Alexander thank you for your insightful series on Genesis 5. I've read through each post and I'm now re-reading. I've been looking for answers to the Gen5 genealogy for as long as I can remember, but recently my search intensified. I began to feel desperate to find a viable, reasonable answer - or answers. My faith was on the line because Real Observations were at odds with Scriptural Inerrancy. My soul cried out to God and his Spirit gave me a vision of an enthralling, beautiful scene of twinkling, shimmering stars couched in a nebula painted in shades of violet - all in relation to the genealogy. It feels strange to me to claim such a thing as a vision, I think it always will. Regardless, the vision persisted in my heart and mind. What a strange association, I thought. This is something I had not considered.
Thank God for search engines, because I found your post, this obscure post, specifically, moments after I set finger to key to find if this association was real. I find your series far too convincing for comfort. I am startled. I demand answers.
I love science and reason, but I love God as well. To me these are interchangeable, in that God is truth and he birthed reason. Proper science is 'merely' a methodologized search for truth. It is my fervent attachment to truth that has repeatedly led me to the God of Israel. Loving truth is loving God and I love him.
My plan is to walk carefully through each post and ask questions accordingly. I am hoping and praying you might have the time and inclination to answer.
Again, Thank You.
OG
Thank you so much god your lovely comment.
I love recreational maths and I had an inclination there was a connection between the planets and Gen 5.
I found the link within three evenings. I was shocked. Later I looked at Gen 11, and after a bit more work, it seemed to fit with astronomical data.
This also solves the young Earth creation issue, as the Gen 5 ages can actually be taken as astronomical data rather than actual years. This means the Bible doesn’t comment on the age of the Earth.
I did read through the Gen11 series, which is also convincing, but elicits a lot more questions.
I have math skill but am slow due to rustiness where you are clearly at ease. That portion will take me time to absorb, understand fully and verify.
This would indeed disprove the Young Earth hypothesis However, it challenges the faith if the numbers are not *actually* the labels that they bear. Whether this is due to mistranslation or some unknown misunderstanding, I do not know. Since scripture is fractal and self-referential I am hoping there is some biblical mechanism or passage that can demonstrate or reveal (convincingly) that this is deliberate on God's part; that it is par for the course.
Pondering this... whomever the ancient originator was, this was clearly oral tradition going deep into prehistory and was finally written down as The Book of Generations of Adam (Gen 5:1) and subsequently included in the first book of Moses. Was it called just "Generations of Adam" before it was written down? If true, it must have been obvious to the prehistoric ancients that it was an astronomical timekeeper and may have thought us dull for now knowing. Moses must have known but maybe he considered it old tech since other, less difficult means of timekeeping had presumably been developed in Egypt?
I hold this theory lightly, because I could be wrong. I will be writing a book on this at some point. And I hope it will be challenged and I can then refine it or finally dismiss it.
In terms of the connection between angels and stars, there are some great information online. I laid it out in my Hebrew Astronomy series.
https://open.substack.com/pub/agloria/p/hebrew-astronomy-part-1-stars-and?r=18rzxg&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
I would look at Genesis 1 v 14 - And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to distinguish between the day and the night, and let them be signs to mark the seasons and days and years.
The text later calls these lights, stars. Stars are biblically symbolical of angels or the sons of God.
So you could argue that Genesis 5 lists the sons of God and relates them to the planets (also known as wandering stars).
I don’t think it challenges our faith too much, just the way we interpret those numbers. Equally, those people could have lived that long. We don’t know.
I think all the ancient numbers in the Pentateuch are all symbolically in some way. I think the problem is that as modern people, we read these numbers at face value. Rather than meditate on them and thereby uncover their layered meanings.
I think the reason it fell out of favour was Near East culture moved to a written culture rather than aural. And the meaning behind the stories were lost. Moses may have been aware of it, but didn’t need it as they could write things down and record the times and seasons without reference to the stars.
Thank you for reading the articles and the feedback
Each person has a differing foundation which their faith is built on. Weak faith can be built on something that is either untrue or technically a liberty in the New Covenant. For example circumcision was a faith-weakness for many of the early Jewish followers, and it eventually morphed into discrimination. Even Peter temporarily succumbed and Paul had to rebuke him publicly for it. Paul would often yield to others' faith weakness and advised in Romans 14 "Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things." This was to protect the faith of the weak, which is a charge for any follower of the Way with strong faith - at least to some extent.
Those who might be weak in the faith may react strongly or immediately reject contrary information should it be presented without sufficient scriptural gravity, thoughtfulness and gentleness. Mis-presented but legitimate contrary information can further weaken or destroy faith, even if it is objectively true.
This information you've presented has that potential and this what I have in mind as I write. Please don't misunderstand - this is not an accusation of mishandling but a sober-mindedness on my part. I want to be mindful of those with weak faith as I myself have been one of those with weak faith.
You are stupendously correct when you speak of the modern perspective. We have generally been trained that numbers mean what they say, that they themselves are exact and not up for interpretation. I am probably more so of this perspective. I find the symbolic mindset disorienting, unnerving. Why would anyone ever deliberately mislabel something of great import and expect me to somehow puzzle the real meaning based on context? Excuse me while I hide under my bed.
Gen 1:14 "Let them be signs to mark the seasons..." is powerful proof that a system which tracked seasons, days and years MUST exist in the real world as this verse the explicitly states that is God's purpose. It begs many questions. What is this system? Where is this system? How do we track these things as God intended?
The Stars > Angels > Planets > Sons of God > Adam's Progeny proof is not strong. I struggle to 'see' this connection. Sons of God is specifically reserved for beings higher than humans and Adam and his sons were very human. However the fact that Cain's progeny was not given this 'honor' and Seth's was may hold something. Cain's line was earthly and Seth's line was heavenly. This sounds like potential clue.